I read an article yesterday about small mainstream churches driven to the wall by the migration to the megas being forced to lease their vacant during the week facilities to small businesses in order to generate enough income to keep the doors open. While I am glad that he came here to confirm the authenticity of the letter, your attitude still shows that you have a long ways to go towards producing fruit that actually looks like repentance. And all youre ever going to be is mean Howard Hughes. Aka dead church. Because (my opinion) in many brands of evangelical protestantism, Paul is the absolute gold standard for all things Christian. Harvest needs to close because there as a beacon to the rest of the world as to what happens when talent trumps the grace of God so feeely given to us in repentance and a broken heart. I have my faith left, but so much that I thought was real about my faith has been shaken off. Too bad he doesnt understand that it can be used just as much for good as it can be for bad. Kinda hard to swear praise and honor to the sovereign terminator while feeling sorry for his victims at the same time. The Evangelical Bubble proclaimed it a Witnessing Tool (as if that was the only reason for anything) and then bought out so many showings a lot of the theaters had to discontinue group tickets. Debby: Check out the Stronger Mens Conference The vast majority of those martyred died for the sake of rejecting false authority and false teaching. They act like the real problem is that they messed up in a technical way. TS00: perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. Just as I have loved you, so you must love one another. I understand your point and the historical information. I call it B.S. I couldnt post that letter due to my absolute disgust at the depths to which MacDonald has sunk. Im holding out hope that my faith in God will survive, but truth be told, some days that seems uncertain as well (and save yourself the time writing me about how my faith must not have been that deep if indeed Im struggling with God and Jesus). Shes gone out of her way to state otherwise. all of this is deeply regrettable. Time and again in these situations, people who were involved exclaim about how God was working and God was doing things! I thought it myself in the situation I was part of, years ago. sober-minded what are these things you see in such people that you identify as being grace-filled? And this is a relatively new development in protestantism, its just 45-50 years old. Of course, he wasnt qualified for either so I guess that didnt matter. There were kindergarten through 5th graders AND many of us parents / employees, who did not know it was going to be shown. Dallas, his dad Jerry Jenkins, and James MacDonald also played poker together. It is very difficult to regain trust when the most trusted abuse it. Time and again, examples in the Bible show light shinning in darkness. America needs more Vietnamese restaurants than New Calvinist church plants. Conversational-type sermons, contemporary worship music, come-as-you-are. James MacDonald will be starting a new ministry. And you sound profoundly arrogant. It's God who opens doors, but we must walk through them. And in January, Moody installed Mark Jobe as the 10 th President of the Moody Bible Institute, replacing Thornton who had served as interim president. Its hard to go back when you see what goes on behind the curtain. Sadly, many of us have learned our lesson the hard way, but it is not he who established these institutions and herded his people into them. . dont do anything just because you want to (that would be selfish) but wait until you hear from God. We praise God as many heard the Good News that weekend. I was then presented with opportunity to post another letter that gives insight without including insulting and painful observations about others. Im going to the training for it in a few weeks. So be careful, dont shoot before you think. seeing the beauty of the deposit of God in them. We the elders fully support him in everything he does. It is atrocious that he is still able to live the life and spend the money as if nothing untoward ever happened. Where is Matt Chandler Pastor? Behind him, an ancient city unfurled. Harvest Bible Chapel began meeting the Rolling Meadows High School building. I understand He loves us to infinity as my 6 year old likes to say, but it sure wouldve been nice if pastor had given parents of small children some kind of warning. Membership Covenants If after that then the church must seek to cut off the relationship so that the sinner may be held account and that you may reach him towards restoring him. Pastor James MacDonald, the founder Harvest Bible Chapel, a megachurch located in the surrounding Chicago area, has been fired as a leader of the church. Ken F (aka Tweed): Rather, it appears that the early church looked much more Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Anglican than low-church protestant. Unfortunate, but true. +++++++++++++++++++++. Every church leader should be good and honest. The Apostles warned us this would happen and to be on guard, but we havent done much about it. and they have everyone scared spitless that if they vocalize their concerns about what is unethical in their church, & in their tribe, they will disappoint God, . Please forgive me. And thats the cold, hard truth. . Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: So, so much we dont know. In the history of the church, which is most seductive: money, sex, or power? Suggesting that the church do away with the building would be met by much weeping and gnashing of teeth. Maybe that was why Elmer Gantry had such impact. I know we have to hunt to keep down the population of wild creatures, especially in areas where they dont have any natural predators, so they dont destroy the environment and/or starve. THEY are the ones who the Lord calls upon to should humbly shepherd the flock. You are loved!. A lot to think about these days! Ken F (aka Tweed):if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. I believe he also was something of an unwitting prophet, possibly used by the Lord Himself, to reflect a mirror back at U.S. Christendom. We believe that disciples of Jesus profess that He is Lord, practice His Ways, and persevere in both their profession and practice. I certainly have my doubts that Paul would be rejoicing over the likes of MacDonald, Hybels, Driscoll, and countless others who have taken advantage of the Body of Christ over the last 2,000 years. The true believers need to either find a local church or seek spiritual counseling because they have a VERY warped sense of church. In addition to the institutional realities in the Gentile churches that we can read about in the early post-biblical literature, we have Pauls guidelines and, IMO above all his vision of one-another relationship within the churches. That included giving James $20K-$30K a MONTH to spend just on T&E. Theres no edit function so it couldnt later be deleted. Unfortunately, the American church is such a mess that it provides sufficient wiggle room for charlatans to launch another ministry and drag the precious name of Christ through the streets again. +++++++++++++++++++. The big issue I have is with the idea that there is this one leader, a high office that this one guy occupies in a church called the pastor. I too often look around at this world, and feel discouraged and useless to make any difference. So I want to say Than. (They had to turn away so many customers while the church buses pulled up singing hymns for what had effectively become sold-out private showings.). PJ, with the loss of religious heritage a forgone conclusion, I suspect they will next be raping our children of their identities, if they havent already. A lot of people still hurt. Muff Potter: Youre not alone elastigirl, theres no way I could watch it either. And I doubt it was simply losing their job, as many of them voluntarily left. And this being heard is not merely some desire for gossip or vengeance, but a desire to confront evil and protect the rest of the naive flock from being manipulated, abused and otherwise taken advantage of. I am sorry you and your family experienced that. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth? Luke 18:8. That changed on Friday. So thats just an opinion. So Guidepost "determined that using Twitter was no longer an option for them." One can attempt to form a very egalitarian group where no one is in charge, but it only works until a dysfunctional person makes a power grab. It just completely sets things up for abusive situations. I have personally seen that place and I want no one to go there. The harm is already done. I suspect that there is a world of difference between what we see in the NT and what we experience in our day, even in groups that try to adhere to the so-called Biblical model. elastigirl: i take no more stock in what paul thinks than i do in what i think. Those of us who have come out of destructive groups like these can assure the survivors that there are other people out there who will love you back into soul health, there are other schools for your children who will treat them right, and some day you will look back on this time and thank God that He pulled you through it. But if conflict is the goal, keep on keeping on. Law Prof: BTW, off topic, yall, but would appreciate prayers for my 94-year-old FIL, who apparently has just days (or even hours) to live. We swore our allegiance to him. We care about you and your family. perhaps the other side of this coin can be the joy and happiness of discovering the magnificence of fellow human beings outside the context of christian culture. Many have joined the Done ranks done with the institutional church, but not done with Jesus. Your comments often put me in mind of the older and wiser men I knew in church when I was young. If the elders arent spiritual men, consider another church. Maybe you missed the point of her post. Thompson walked away from Harvest in 2013. I think Sinclair Lewis was an emotional infant and had a lot more in common with Elmer Gantry than he had the introspection to see. Same thing church leaders told Mars Hill members after Driscolls exit and Willow Creek after Hybels exit. Covidfrom the start of the pandemic and lockdowns, the Worship and Creative Teams busied themselves with recordings, writing coronavirus updates, and developing worship environments that would be both accessible and God-honoring in the height of the pandemic. But nowadays I find myself wondering what that even means. Neither Dean Butters nor I wanted our letters published. The Chosen is similar to Risen, the excellent faith -based film that . Why is he going public six years later? Restore him to ministry? Since beginning its training center, Harvest Bible Chapel has helped established over 193 church plants across the country and around the world. (1 Peter 4:14). Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong. I agree that there is hierarchy in the churches from very early. . Of course, we dont know; there are AFAIK no extant early post-biblical church documents from the Jewish churches. They are all one and the same. To do that you must have first hand knowledge and part of that fellowship in some fashion in order to be qualified to hold people accountable before God. Who can say? That is because genuine relationships among people are an existential threat to the cult. MacDonalds lavish lifestyle drove Thompson to leave the church. A shepherd does not own the sheep, but a hireling, responsible to the true owner for seeing after them, protecting them, helping them to make their way to new pastures and safe water when the old become bare. Ideally, we wouldnt need Twitter and blogs to expose the truth about corrupt churches, ministries, and their leaders. How would church members do what you recommend? After reading each post on this matter, I cannot find a single one that brings dishonor to the Lord Jesus. At a lot of these churches, you try and start an unapproved Bible study on the side, theyll shut it down or insist on putting an approved church leader in control. I read your posts as a searing, agonized, utterly sincere *cri de ceour. I am not saying that I am a proponent of hierarchy. I truly believe God provides the grace for elders to walk in the attributes in 1Tim 3, You dont have to watch a person for very long to discern whether that person is a grace filled believer or not. There is no question that MacDonald was running the elders. It allows us to pour more money into local ministries and needs as well as overseas ministries. In case this has escaped your awareness, most folks on TWW have experienced abuse in churches. Fred Adams former Harvest CFO has a serious gambling addiction. Dallas Jenkins: It was given to the elders two months ago. But one way or the other, my instincts about Hall dont alter my opinion that Dee likely has good reasons to not want to use this forum to air a familys personal tragedy any more. Whew! I guess thats why I share my story, in hopes that others can be forewarned. Children were crying, looking around with fear on their faces, teachers were trying to physically comfort some by embracing them, and even removed some children. That someone who was on the point of dying took time to write these dreams down is remarkable in and of itself. Amen to that Max! You see, the symbolic meaning of harvest in Scripture encompasses two main areas: God's provision for us and God's blessing for others. They began by gathering in an unused TV studio. Not one. Acts 20:17, Paul called the elders. 1 Peter 5:1, Peter exhorted the elders. It is never one individual who rules over the church, but a group of people, the elders. Thats a smoking crater of a response. They are not pretty. I remember it vividly because our child was very, very deeply disturbed and upset, AS WAS I. I had not ever seen the movie, nor intended to ever see it. elastigirl: but ultimately it means people are brainwashed into being acquiescent, passive, accommodating, maintaining their silence. I suppose those are the sort of preachers Jesus had in mind when He said: You guys are tempting me to mount my soap box! For you, maybe, but not for most here. Wartburgers, perhaps they are coming to a church near you! This man is a disgrace to humanity. Christ gave Himself for His people and that kind of sacrificial self-giving love was meant to be characteristic of those who stood in Christs place in offices of authority in the churches. Sandy: In the history of the church, which is most seductive: money, sex, or power? What religion is Harvest Church? Anonymity is not the same thing as cowardice, but thanks so much for playing that tired old game. Im becoming increasingly wary of the megachurch model. Friend: And you have the same right as the rest of us to post anonymously. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I will admit I now find it kind of shocking that a guy who never knew Jesus in life could muscle his way in and call himself an apostle among the other apostles. I think theres a massive problem with the deference thats given to pastors and other religious leaders. Turning a blind eye was a full failure. I doubt that the facts will stop MacDonald from making an unrepentant comeback. Why in the world hed take this approach and evidently consider it courageous or fitting is completely beyond me. The first service in this new house of God was held on September 10, 1995. able to teach Dallas was in charge of Production and Visual Media at HBC. I was at a Lenten service and helping with confirmation this evening. ++++++++++++++++++++. What is an egalitarian group to do I when bullies take over? The place is not worth saving. Spend a moment praying to God before you begin reading. all of this stuff was predicted by the NT. We all know who is trustworthy, mature and wise to go to for advice or counsel. And who on this blog doesnt love questions to be answered and truth to be revealed. The famous TV series director is a prominent name in the entertainment industry. Noevangelical: So do you think this is something like Stockholm Syndrome? Dallas Jenkins As many others have also said, I couldnt care less about what house or car James owns. A people laden with iniquity, offspring of evildoers, children who deal corruptly! (Isaiah 1:4). At their final congregational meeting, they became a Harvest Bible Chapelgifting their building to us. More and more people are realizing that they are not going to get the facts from Harvest. What is the source? Truth is real. ME MAN! Im a witness that almost everything you re reading and hearing is true.. The damage he has done is incalculable. Give them what they want in the present, and they wont care about the past. JDV: This verse came to mind: For it is the time for the judgment to have begun from the house of God; and if from us first, what will be the outcome of those disobeying the gospel of God? (1 Peter 4:17) The business-first model that seems so pervasive and knocks down just about any scrutiny until there is videotaped evidence would seem to fit somewhere in that spectrum, no? If not, he served as an elder when he wasnt one and we call that a fraud, And there were boatloads of frauds on those elder boards, How do I know? so, if as Max says, if we do not get senile, or too bitter or cynical, our life experinces can at least put current disasters in perspective. It becomes a social club or a corporation or a cult or whatever. Now James MacDonald joins the fracas, adding his own peculiar vulgarities to the mix. Noevangelical: Lowlandseer, I read that as a statement, not a post open for discussion, and an appeal to stop the speculation and kibitzing over a tragic situation. This also is so very true! Ken F (aka Tweed): trained under Peter and James. All our campuses gathered together for three consecutive Saturdays of the summer Ravinia style. Director Dallas Jenkins on the Goshen, Utah, set of "The Chosen" Season 2. This all happens when we gather, grow and go together as followers of Jesus. If its any comfort, other steps are being taken. As our leaders prayed and sought to plant churches in the city of Chicago, a small congregation with a struggling church in Niles was looking for new life. The qualifications are very restrictive for the reason that God wants and needs the best possible candidates to lead His people. husband of one wife Samuel Conner: Be imitators of God, as dearly loved children, and live a life of love, even as Christ loved us and gave Himself for us. We all know that Gateways Crisis Manager Lawrence Swicegood is helming the 2020 Committee, so this is not surprising. . Everything after those three paragraphs is my comment. Well, Im just a speck in the universe. In church context, it may even be worse than the secular business context because in addition to the objective institutional power wielded by the narcissist CEO, there is the presumption of divine authority which legitimates the misuse of power. it must be protected. I hate using this corporate example but if you have a CEO of your company who does not meet the qualifications for that job, what happens? It was given to the elders two months ago. Its repulsive that he has to be in fear of his kids kicked out of HCA. Its time to throw open the windows HBC so all can see what really happened. Thats when the insanity really began. Or get your own blog and allow comments to your hearts content. Harvest Bible Chapel on the Lord's Way in Naples was once one of eight campuses of the 40,000-member, Illinois-based Harvest Bible Chapel. All this, with the goal of getting me, my family and the Executive Elders removed ," MacDonald wrote. Its time for all these leaders to stop whining as if they were the victims and demonstrate a genuine show of sackcloth and ashes before the masses they deceived the real victims who must now live with being tithe-paying participants in this scam against Holy God. Remember when we videotaped us all playing The Name Game? Lets face it, in this era one can access whatever superior teaching is preferred in the comfort of their home or car. I will reflect on your honesty and embrace the possibilities. there was no way i could see that movie, even as a full-fledged crusty, jaded adult. The time for half measures is over. It feels like Im eaten away inside. Thousands came and all seven campuses hosted these spectacular services all at one location! Within that letter was something that broke my heart and caused me to realize that James MacDonald is a mean, churlish, old man that should never be allowed anywhere near a pulpit. Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? My writing partner (the burned-out preacher) described it as the best movie I dont ever want to see again. mostly because God doesnt need professional christians and their institution in the first place.. EPISKOPOS, translated in English is an overseer or a bishop. * Gaga sees them as self-righteous. To make up for their very tiny, um sense of self-esteem. It must be recognized that all three words refer to the same position within the church. Someone should also dig into the incident regarding the video of Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ that was shown to HCA ELEMENTARY school children without any warning or notice to parents. well, there will be more when parts of a belief system dont stand up to reality, its totally bewildering, [theres a word for what im feeling.it escapes me. Those who are truly qualified (I think) know they are so in need of Gods favor to consistently live that out and are only barely qualified by what God has already done in them to that point. Well, Im just a speck in the universe. im proud to be human. What in the world is going on? Thank you!!!! Thats a rare bird, indeed, in the American church. to take stock in ones view, and have confidence in it, is personal responsibility. Wow. That brings me great joy, because sometimes I feel pretty alone in this wilderness. Oh Dallas, for heavens sake, cut it out. If you dont get why your letter was leaked and why people are upset, I would say youre isolated and you need to take the blinders off. Please never leave this forum. you mention they are so far in and so much of their identity comes from being part of the group that the thought of just leaving would be like jumping off of a cliff?. Harvest members face losing their church homes over this man, yet he is planning on exporting this secret personal enrichment scheme, that is not at arms length, throughout the U.S. Thanks for confirming the authenticity of the content, Dallas. I just wonder how much of my tithes went to support their gambling problem. No more Moses behind a veil. Good Grief. Our inaugural ministry in the heart of Chicago began on September 20, 2009, with a mobile campus that met for worship on Sunday nights at a school in Wicker Park. information from others can be beneficial. While some noble souls may have stayed longer thinking they could make a difference and persuade JMac to be a better man, the wise ones would have realized this to be an impossible task and took the first opportunity to get while the gettin was good. One can attempt to form a very egalitarian group where no one is in charge, but it only works until a dysfunctional person makes a power grab. Lol. Our musicians have taken to heart the mission, core, and purpose of Vertical Church music: To write songs of ascription for the church to use in worshiping Christ around the world. I will add that I know several women who want out badly, but their husbands refuse. Its sad to have lived to such a ripe old age to witness a generation that doesnt respect their elders as they ought. Dont let the hypocrisy of men lessen your trust in God. not given to wine Yup, there are plenty of great sources of community *outside* of the church. at one time run an online poker site? Sorry to hear that he is now masquerading as Santa Claus Ill tell my grandchildren to be on the lookout. That brings back a memory I havent thought about for years. Bidding me still to fight on. Also, we must note who it is that the elders have authority over. Ive been in churches where folks in the pew worshiped the property more than Jesus! We do use the facility a lot during the week and make it available for local schools to use. In a godly biblical hierarchy, what would flow downhill would be love and care. Revamping the financial transparency laws for 501-c3 religious entities would be a good start. You should repent and make reparations where necessary. I certainly have my doubts that Paul would be rejoicing over the likes of MacDonald, Hybels, Driscoll, and countless others who have taken advantage of the Body of Christ over the last 2,000 years. The churches have become the world. Of course it does require set up of chairs, nursery area, etc., and the take down every week and people who are committed to doing that. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. they also have worthy things to say which others benefit from. Dallas Jenkins, Dallas Jenkins was a former leader at Harvest Bible Chapel. I will be praying for you. and bring me another beer. THis man should never be in a position of authority again, and even less in one of spiritual authority (whatever that may mean). A: To learn how to do church in order to manipulate, intimidate and dominate trusting souls. In such people that you identify as being grace-filled or seek spiritual counseling because they have a very sense... 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